Full Transcript
[00:00:07] Dr Monika Wieliczko: Welcome to your guide to afterlife, your go to podcast for young widows. I'm your host, doctor Monika Wieliczko, a psychologist and your fellow widow. Each episode brings you insights from world renowned grief experts and authors discussing complex grief issues and their personal experiences of loss. My aim is to challenge the way you think, empower you to face your feelings, and help you develop resilient ways to grief. Move beyond surviving each day and visit guidetoafterlife.com to take part in the grief MOT, your first aid program for grief.
[00:00:50] Dr Marianne Trent: In today's episode, I've got a very special guest with me, Doctor Marianne Trent. She is a clinical psychologist who specializes in working with trauma, grief, anxiety and depression. She works in private practice and she's also an author of an amazing book, The Grief Collective. And a person I've found on social media, she's someone who's been very active spreading the word of her psychology and helping us all think about those issues that perhaps they're not always easy to talk about, like, for example, grief. And I really wanted her to come in and talk to us about her brilliant idea of writing a book in a month that helped her gather a group of experts in grief, expert by the experience, sharing their stories of how grief affected them and how it changed their life and how they coped with grief. So I really wanted to get her opinion, her expertise on how we can live with grief, but also how to honor grief in our life. So welcome, Marianne.
[00:02:01] Speaker 3: Oh, thank you, Monika. Thank you so much for inviting me and for that lovely introduction.
[00:02:05] Dr Marianne Trent: Oh, it's lovely to have you here. So do you mind just telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do, what your passion is, and obviously this whole idea of the book, which is really I've got it with me. I haven't read the whole thing, but it just feels like you need to take it bit by bit. So I really want to kind of honor that space and and not rush with it. But at the same time, I feel it's so important that we start this conversation. So I'm really looking forward to hearing your perspective today.
[00:02:35] Speaker 3: Thank you. So as you say, I'm a I'm a clinical psychologist. I'm a wife. I'm a mother. I'm a daughter. I'm a sister. And you know I'm 43 as I speak to you now and you know you kind of feel like you're crystallized you know many of your personality factors probably by by your late thirties, I would say. You feel like, yeah, this is this is who I am. And I think what I hadn't really realized was how much my experience of grieving for my dad would change that, you know. And just before we hit record for this episode, you know, you're thinking about the changes and, you know, it's as we speak now, it's been almost seven years since he died. Yeah. And, you know, looking through photos of myself before he died and then stumbling across ones more recently you know it's and then if you had that experience but you're like who is that? Who is that woman? I don't know who that is. I miss her. She was great and it's just powerful isn't it? I mean we don't talk about grief enough but nor was I ready for the impact it would have upon me and yeah, the grief collective, thank you for for saying what lovely book it is. It was a beautiful project to be part of. So it only came about in a month because I was challenged to write a book in a month. And one of my close friends who also speaks about grief as well, Doctor Cara Davey, she and I had always we've we've been friends since we were assistant psychologists. And she always said, you've got to write a book one day, Marianne. I love I love reading what you write, you know, even in stuff I would email her or or text her like she's like, you're just really powerful with words. And I saw her even a couple of weeks ago and she even said the same thing like I'm, you know, I feel there's more coming from you. And so we were we were both on this challenge to write a book in a month and we both did it. Hers was about her experiences of having a stillborn daughter and then how to kind of talk about subsequent pregnancies with remaining siblings. But yeah, this idea of a book in a month. And I'd had the idea for the grief collective already because when my dad was palativly unwell, I had a small child at that time. So when my dad died, my youngest was 18 of age. But I'd known he my dad had cancer since the early stages of my pregnancy with him. So it's kind of that whole growing a baby, birthing a baby, nursing a baby. And, you know, it's just stuff that was very different from my first pregnancy where it was all about abundant joy and everyone's very excited. Whereas it does alter. It does alter things. So yeah, was just my experience of of wanting to talk about grief but the different stages of grief really. So I'd before he died, I thought the worst bit would be the losing him and the anticipation of that. And, you know, when you know somebody's going to die, it becomes very, very important that you try to well, for me, I can't speak for everybody. It became very important that I would be there at the moment when he died. And the idea that I might not be was awful. But then once they have died, you're like, oh, well, that's happened. I was there. I'm pleased about that. But now you need to go forward for how to live your life without that person. And I think I didn't realize
[00:06:33] Dr Marianne Trent: And that's a very different story.
[00:06:36] Speaker 3: Underpinned I was in everything really. But yes, it's I think the concept of grief is so important because we can grieve for so many different things. So even in the book, it's not all about people loss. It's not all about human loss. There's other losses in there as well. And even with some of the work I do talking about grief, know, quite recently Liam Payne, one of the one of the members of One Direction died. And you know, can be so invalidating when people are grieving, but grief is grief. You know, our brains don't always get the memo that this isn't someone in our in our actual physical intimate lives. If you are if you feel connected to someone or even someone you don't know at all and you hear of their loss, it can evoke grief reactions in you and it can stir up previous losses, you know.
[00:07:34] Dr Marianne Trent: I mean, I'm so glad you said it because that is so often the case. And one of the things I'm really always struck by is that everything we've experienced in life will affect and determine how we deal with future losses and always triggers those past experiences. So, yes. And when you said about, you know, famous people dying and how that affects us, I mean, it's a very well known phenomenon that people grieve and and get terribly affected by by those losses, not because they knew the person, but they represented something internally for them. So there was there's obviously the whole idea of what's the person symbolizes for them. Is it a connection with a person that they've lost before? Is it someone they've never had before, especially if it's like a mother or father figure in their mind? Or if there's something a bit more complicated about our experiences with our caregivers in our early life experiences. It it's all very convoluted, but we we tend to look at it in a very kind of simplistic way, which is why I think people like yourself, you know, talking about these things in a much more approachable and and genuine way is so important that we don't just brush it off and say, oh, you know, it's just not real loss or this whole competition about which loss is greater or which loss is more profound, which isn't always that helpful for the person who's actually grieving to know, well, you shouldn't be grieving the loss of your pet. I personally know that if my dog dies, I will be absolutely devastated for many different reasons, but partially because of the role she played in my previous losses, but also how attached that became to her and how, you know, how much time we spent together. So it's it's there are different kind of layers, aren't they, to what it means, the last, which is why I think your book is so valuable because it shows us this whole range of different losses and how similar they are. Because when I was reading your book, especially your story in the book, I was thinking, well, it wasn't really that different to how I've lost my husband and, you know, it's just another male figure in your life that's had a significant impact and shaped your life for many years. So, of course, it's gonna be a significant loss. Of course, it's gonna shake you at the core of your being and change the way you are.
[00:09:58] Speaker 3: Yeah. I'm sorry to learn of the loss of your husband as well. You know, I can only imagine what that was like. But like you, yeah, like you said, when we met to chat, like, it isn't a hierarchy. You've been affected by that, and that's valid and that's important. And the compassionate part of ourselves wanted to keep them for longer.
[00:10:18] Dr Marianne Trent: I remember in one of the pages you wrote about wishing he lived longer, like I think there was the comparison be between how long his father lived and how long he lived and it was, like, I think two years apart. Mhmm. And that wish to have more time, I thought, yes, of course, we always want more. There's no matter how long someone lives, there's always this kind of feeling of wanting more. You know, whether they live forty years or seventy years, it's still really shocking, especially if you're expecting more. It's not very logical, is it, to say? Well, although in some ways, can also see how some people will probably will be more prepared if they reach that kind of point in life when it's okay to let go of life. Think that that's another thing and it it is all very kind of subjective. But of course, when we think about losing a child to cancer in childhood, I mean, obviously, that is a very different experience to losing an adult person, but it's still every loss is has a tremendous impact on us, and it's really quite quite shocking. But I suppose wanted to find out a bit more about your experiences. First of all, of what it was like at the time when you were obviously, when your father was ill and and then after things kind of progressed further, I think he reached that kind of start the stage of terminal period of time where it was just a matter of months perhaps and then weeks. And then how things kind of changed over time, you know, because it's been as you said, it's been almost seven years now since he died. So I wonder what's what it was like at the time.
[00:12:03] Speaker 3: Yeah. So we had my parents fortieth Ruby wedding anniversary celebrations. When was that? That was February. And I think he knew he wasn't super well then, but my dad was big into vintage motorbikes. And every year he liked to go off to the Isle Of Man with his friends and go and take part in the vintage TT races there. And he knew he had to book a doctor's appointment, but I think he was like, I don't really want anything to get in the way of this. Yeah. So I think he delayed it. And he's he's allowed to do that. And we kind of have to make peace with that.
[00:12:48] Dr Marianne Trent: Yeah. That was his choice.
[00:12:51] Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. Also, sorry. I didn't know that was gonna make me upset. It's okay though. It's okay to be
[00:12:59] Dr Marianne Trent: upset more. Absolutely okay to be upset. Yeah.
[00:13:02] Speaker 3: So that was the summer. But because he died of esophageal cancer, what we know is that actually often by the time you even catch the symptoms, it's already spread. Yeah. Too bad. So Yeah.
[00:13:18] Dr Marianne Trent: Yeah. So common, isn't it? I mean, we can think back and think, oh, if we have done it differently, if we have caught it early, but often it's not possible.
[00:13:29] Speaker 3: No. And he wasn't a great age. He was 71 when he died and he loved his life. He loved his children. He loved loved spending time with us at the time. I had one son and my brother had one daughter. It's a shame we didn't get to to stick around for longer. By the time he died, I had two boys and my brother and his partner were expecting another child and they've just got engaged just before he died and they came home and told us that and then they'd whispered to him, oh, I'm expecting another baby And but don't tell anyone they said. And he forgot and told everyone, which is really lovely. But ultimately, that was a little boy and it named him off top of dad, which is really nice. Aw. Aw. I'm so sorry, Monika.
[00:14:22] Dr Marianne Trent: Well, there really is no need to apologize for this. It's
[00:14:26] Speaker 3: Yeah. But you know, and if people are listening to this thinking, can you be a therapist if you're still grieving? You think, well, I'm a good one. I am a human and a better psychologist for having been through everything I've been through and talked about everything I've talked about. And we don't always stand this close to our grief. Sometimes we just have to not connect to it. Sometimes going about our day to day life is like a mild dissociation, isn't it? You can't be flooded in it all the time. No. And that's okay. You know? It's absolutely okay.
[00:15:02] Dr Marianne Trent: But I'm also mindful that the anniversary is coming up. So I think that also puts us always puts us in a very vulnerable position. And I don't know about you, but for me, it's the buildup of those weeks before the actual anniversary. I mean, there's so many anniversaries, the birthdays, death, and, you know, meaningful events in life. But but that always puts us in touch. But but why wouldn't it? And I think I would rather be in touch with my grief and the love that I still cherish than than not to be in touch with any of that. And I think that's the price we pay for love is that we grieve. And and, of course, your dad is still gonna be a massive part of it in the same way as my late husband Even though he's not here, but he's always gonna be there. And and then I wouldn't want to let go of that. You know, why would we?
[00:15:58] Speaker 3: I think it's you know, I have a thousand questions for you about how you hold that space in your new relationship for what you previously held.
[00:16:07] Dr Marianne Trent: Know, it's
[00:16:07] Speaker 3: perhaps slightly less complicated if you didn't already have children with him but it's still, you know, it's not a relationship that you chose to end. No. And so
[00:16:17] Dr Marianne Trent: it's It's very different. Yeah. No. It's very complicated and I talk about it really openly because I think it's one of those things that people relationships after loss is my kind of favorite go to topic to talk about really. But it's hard in some ways. In other ways, it's easier than I thought it would be. But I think I'm very fortunate to be with someone who makes room for my feelings and my grief and and supports me with that. So I've never felt like there was some kind of competition going on between my past and my present life in a way that would be unhealthy. There's, you know, there's natural process of grieving, I think, that involves that, you know, of letting go of some of the aspects and making room for another relationship, which is a challenge, and it's been a challenge. You know, how can you open yourself up to being infatuated by new relationship, new love when you're hurting so much. And and I think that's been a challenge all the way through from the beginning, you know, you know, initially I was very hungry, but but now it's it's a place where just feels like I've got enough room for both. Would put it this way. But really, there is so much and your your heart can grow and your mind can grow and hold those complex conflicting feelings in the same way as I'm sure dealing with death when you're having a a child or, you know, a young child is is must have been a challenge for you. You know, it's kind of similar life and and loss, living your life, wanting to grow. And, you know, for me, there's always been such an important element of knowing how do you hold both. How do you deal with all those losses you've endured in life and still live a fulfilling life and grow. It's always a challenge.
[00:18:14] Speaker 3: Yeah. And I think you might be doing yourself a disservice there for your boundaries in the way that you needed to go forward in your life. Know, you put all of that on your your current partner and said, I'm very lucky that he does this that and the other. But actually in order for that relationship to progress, it was gonna be quite important that he was open and curious and compassionate. If he was just like, no, your husband is dead. Like you need to move on. Then your relationship would likely wouldn't have progressed because you needed to be treated, you know, as a as a human and not have someone been measuring up to themselves and being jealous and insecure. Yeah. I guess anyone perhaps listening to this thinking about starting a new relationship, if that's what it feels like, if it feels competitive, maybe this isn't the person
[00:19:05] Dr Marianne Trent: for you. Mhmm.
[00:19:07] Speaker 3: You know, because you do deserve what you've experienced, someone who can sit alongside you in your sadness, not just cheer you up or push it away.
[00:19:16] Dr Marianne Trent: Yeah. Yeah. And don't get me wrong. I think it's very confusing for anyone who's going through this in a supportive role, especially if it's a partner to feel confused and not knowing what to think and and saying the wrong thing or doing the wrong thing. But I think it's more the question whether there is just enough room and clarity about it, you know, because it's there's always this competition between I don't know what your experiences was like, but there's always this kind of feeling, especially in the initial stage of grief where you want to be in touch with your grief. You don't want to let go of something. It's just like a really powerful force that pulls you back into your grief. And and then there is life. And then there are people who are saying, well, come back to life and and live your life. But initially, there is this kind of conflicting powers in you that are pulling you in the opposite directions. But I think the secret is to find that kind of middle ground where you can grieve and live.
[00:20:16] Speaker 3: Yeah. I think often some of the work I've done with people who are grieving who come to me for support in that, it's really difficult because part of them is like I can't I can't keep doing this. But there's that real fear that if I don't do this, how will I take them forward? How will I feel connected? How will I be honoring their memory if I'm not wallowing in this pit of of horrendous grief. And so a lot of the work is encouraging them to to feel that, but to think well how much of that do we need hold on to? How much of the pain do we need to hold on to? And how much can we afford to let go? And that is not the same as letting the memories go. That is not the same as letting your love for that person go. And when we, you know, it's very old, very cliched but people will say to you, they wouldn't have wanted you to live like this, you know. But you really over time begin to I think the difference is appreciate that you deserve to have a joyful, rewarding, enjoyable life and that it doesn't say anything about you that you've been able to achieve that without that person there.
[00:21:36] Dr Marianne Trent: Yeah. Really well put. And and I wonder what what was that like for you, that process of figuring this out, you know. I know that you've been bookie right about taking some time off work and needing some time just to yourself and then gradually coming back and wonder what what that process of figuring that middle ground was like and what helped you.
[00:22:00] Speaker 3: It's a great question. And, you know, I was breastfeeding my my youngest all of this time until he was almost three. So, you know, there was a a big chunk of my life where I was needing to be around. I never had a night off from him in all of those years that he was feeding, and he did not sleep. My children I hope you have a better experience, but my children were not sleepers. Like, they just didn't sleep. At worst, my eldest kind of would wake, like, 31 times a night. It was wild. I think my youngest was ever so slightly better than that. Regularly, I was getting up seven times a night.
[00:22:38] Dr Marianne Trent: Mhmm.
[00:22:38] Speaker 3: So to be doing that, I really didn't feel like it was hard to get any minutes for myself. So I was working for the NHS three days a week at this stage when my dad was unwell. And then the other two days a week, was looking after my my youngest and doing school runs and stuff for my for my eldest. And so really some of that sick leave was about me having some time to myself to to make sense of all of this, know, and to do I did really random things like made candles from scratch whilst crying, you know, like just stuff that you can't do when you've got young children with you. Yeah. And yeah, just baking cakes and having a nap and reading and meeting up with my mom for lunches and I don't really it wasn't it wasn't always tangible stuff I did but I definitely wasn't well enough to be able to be with someone and sit with their distress and as you'll know with kind of with kind of psychology and mental health often even on a referral it might look like x y and z But then you get someone through the door and they're like, oh, and, you know, so and so's name was and that's the name of, you know, my dad. And, you know, they died of this cancer and it was esophageal. And before you know it, all of this stuff is leaking into my stuff, but it wasn't on the referral. So even when you're trying to be selective about what referrals you're picking up, it's still still very hard. And so it was important that I was able to be present for the clients and not just really really leaky and focusing on myself and my own distress. So I was off from probably about ten days before he died. Might not have even been that long. I wish I'd gone off sooner. Mhmm. But it's that never knowing Yeah. How long it's all gonna take. Yeah. And then I was off, I think, until I'm gonna say, like, March. Mhmm. Certainly a good way into February. So a good few months. And I think for me, almost it being a different season felt quite important as well.
[00:24:54] Dr Marianne Trent: So having that time to reset and focus and I mean, just there's something about you when you was describing this candle making process and creating things, which is, you know, in some ways a very reparative process, which is about fixing the bits that are broken or kind of forming something or trying to mold your experience into something that has some kind of meaning or or something kind of creative. I think there's something incredible about creativity is what that's what I'm trying to get to right now because it made me think about the holding space. There's something kind of about the candle being representing for me this kind of forms and the memory that you can hold because when you when you make a candle, then you can burn the candle and and the whole cycle evolves. So I mean, I haven't done candles when I when my husband died, but but I did them before. And I now remember this feeling of just blending things and kind of forming them, letting them set in, I think, in the freezer for a bit and then just seeing how that kind of evolves and, you know, and then using the candle. It just the whole cycle kind of where it makes me think about life, the cycle of life, but also creation and then the burning the candle, which is, you know, when the life kind of comes to an end. So it makes perfect sense to me. I don't know if that's what it was helping you with, but but it was definitely something to occupy your mind also and take you away from just grieving, which we all know that I don't know if people know that very very much in the kind of general public that it's impossible to just grieve all the time and not have time off and feel like you're moving forward with your with your grieving experience because you need that that time away from work, from your children, from the pressure to be able to decompress, to to kind of move more freely, to go, as you say, go for lunch and but also just to allow yourself to to be there. I mean, I I stopped working for a year, and I just couldn't the last thing I was able to think of is is to work. I just wouldn't be able to function properly. And I'm really glad I did have that time away because I think it really helped me longer term with picking up the pieces and feeling like I can actually live a bit better. But
[00:27:23] Speaker 3: some days feel more hopeful.
[00:27:27] Dr Marianne Trent: Mhmm.
[00:27:27] Speaker 3: And if you've decided on that day to go back to work, that might not be right because maybe that was just a good day. And I think we need to almost watch the ebbs and the flows
[00:27:41] Dr Marianne Trent: and
[00:27:42] Speaker 3: see how deep the awful days are and see see what the middle ground looks like.
[00:27:51] Dr Marianne Trent: Yes, of course. And and I think there's always this misconception in society that grieve is a process that you know, has a beginning, middle, and the end. And then you're done with your grieving and then you come back to life, which is saying is there are ebbs and flows. It comes and goes and maybe the waves are not as that don't hit you as hard after a while, but they'd still come back, you know, like you just felt it as you were talking about your dad. And I thought, well, yes, of course. And the way I could hear in your voice is the love for him and and just how much you miss him still and of my wouldn't you? You know, I think it's seven years, but it's also only been seven years.
[00:28:36] Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. My little boy likes to talk about him, which is really lovely. Not everybody else does do they? You know, people are often scared to talk about you know reminding you of grief or loss.
[00:28:50] Dr Marianne Trent: As if you could forget.
[00:28:52] Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. Like you're gonna forget. He's like, oh tell me about grumpy norm. And it's really nice. So you don't be afraid Yeah. To check-in with people you know. Think especially at Christmas. So I'll often send one of my friends who lost her husband, I'll send her a card and I will put her husband's name in it. So you know, I'm thinking of him because often you don't get people aren't talking to you. They're not mentioning his name or their names anymore and actually it's really nice to think, well they did matter. They did touch other people's lives
[00:29:21] Dr Marianne Trent: as well. And I almost think that there's some kind of relief once you mentioned, and I often do that with my friends and family that I mentioned, my late husband in the conversation whenever he comes to my mind. And and there's almost like this sense of, oh, so we can't talk about it. So it's fine. It's fine. She's not gonna, I don't know, collapse or something. Yeah. It's just really interesting that Yeah. It just feels easier when you actually talk about it.
[00:29:47] Speaker 3: And Yeah. I think that's the thing with the grief collective as well though. Like, I really I was acutely aware that I was I'm a psychologist, and so I'm going to have lots of other psychologists in my phone that I can message, you know. And so I was tending to whilst I was kind of nursing my child to sleep many many times be messaging my friends, you know, by a messenger or WhatsApp and kind of feeling really contained in that virtual space. But I was also aware that actually most people going through grief are probably experiencing this real radio silence where people are kind of ignoring them because they don't really know what to say. They don't want to rock the boat. They don't want to upset you. And so they don't have that experience of loads of psychological people or people I'd reached out to because I knew that they'd grieved. And so we were kinda connecting on that level. So they might not be psychologists, but they were they'd earn their stripes, know. They were friends or even at that point, you know, people that one of my closest friends now is someone that I was at secondary school with. Her name's Laura. I don't think she'll mind me saying that. We didn't ever really connect. We didn't ever really speak. We had nothing in common. She was far too cool for me. She's way cooler than me. And even that plays out even now. So my children will go over to her house and she lets the kids play with slime. And I'm like, do they call it the slime house? I'm I'm not I'm not a slime I'm not a slime girl. But, yeah, like, you know, we were just different people. But actually, we were both expecting our second children and we were messaging. She'd lost her dad quite a few years before. But I think it it helps you find common ground with people that you never would have imagined you'd have common ground with. And then you can form a really beautiful authentic relationship that you never would have imagined that you'd have. Like before our lives were so poles apart, there was no Mhmm. No common ground. But I think just having that little thing in common, you then I think are more aligned on values
[00:32:10] Dr Marianne Trent: Mhmm.
[00:32:11] Speaker 3: Rather than hobbies and, you know, lifestyle. And I think that is really special. So the grief collective is full of people who are happy to talk to you about grief, about the worst parts of it, to talk about the things that have been helpful for them. And I really wanted people to have access to that if they don't have people who are already in their life happy to talk about grief.
[00:32:33] Dr Marianne Trent: And how did you manage to gather all these people? What what was the process of actually because you did it in a month. So it's just like, how how did it come about? But it's such a powerful message out there that people were willing to support the project and and to kind of be part of the collective. It's such a wonderful message, I think. Mhmm. People want to be part of the collective.
[00:32:58] Speaker 3: Yeah. Well it was you know, I I pitched to certain people explaining the project and asking if they would contribute. So that was some of the people that had been part of my grief collective. But many of the people in the book I actually have never met in person at all and yet we're still happy to contribute. So I'd put out requests on social media talking about what I was trying to achieve. And even people that I did know might have seen that on socials and been like, oh, I'd actually really like to write about x y and z. So I'd ask people to kind of pitch me their stories Yeah. For ideas for their what they might write about and then kind of work with them to come up with something that would would come across really nicely in the book and there's a real mixture of loss there. I know when we spoke you were like, you know, there's lots of parent loss and I think there is because probably many people my age
[00:33:51] Dr Marianne Trent: Experienced that.
[00:33:52] Speaker 3: Yeah. Haven't lost many other people other than other than parents. But there is a real spread of ages in the book as well. There's you can kind of hear even when by the way people speak that they might be younger. And then there's Dave who talks in the book about being older and has a really powerful moment of thinking about where you find your family connections as you age. You know, we're always used to looking up in the family tree for moments of connection and understanding ourselves. But over time, we might begin to have to look sideways. And then over time, we might need to be looked down for those connections and it's it's that readjusting your vision really. And that's I think that's something that my grandfather on my mom's side who died when he was 95. I think that was something that he struggled with because he was very much like, you know, my wife has died. My girlfriend has now died. All of my friends have died. My brother has died. You know, my wife's sister's died. It was just us left and I don't know if he necessarily felt as connected or that that was as valuable. And by the time he got to 95, he was he was ready to die. And like you said earlier, like it it's always sad when somebody dies, but knowing that actually they had made their peace with that and they'd achieved everything they wanted to achieve. You know, he he retired when he was 60. He had thirty five years of Yes. Of being a pensioner and being able to he was a Quaker and being able to be part of that Quaker community and support people. And on his ninetieth birthday, he was on his shed roof fixing it. You know? He wasn't your average. He wasn't your average 90 or
[00:35:33] Dr Marianne Trent: Definitely not.
[00:35:34] Speaker 3: But by the time he was 95, he wasn't he wasn't able to do all the things he would he liked doing. I think he'd stopped driving and that was a very good choice. But, you know, when somebody begins to not have that sense that life feels enjoyable and worthwhile, that that does make it very different. Whereas, you know, my dad and your husband were still had lots of things they wanted to achieve. Yeah.
[00:35:59] Dr Marianne Trent: And I think that's the painful part of life, isn't it? When it happens when someone's still engaged and involved and, you know, I remember my husband was at the peak of his career and everything was going so well and then it was just this kind of really harsh bumpy end to it, which is reality scene that you can't do certain things. And and it's just very painful as you're saying. It's very different to this more normal kind of life trajectory when you reach a point where, yeah, it's it's okay to let go. Sadly, for many people, that is not the case and so much harder. But it sounds to me, Marianne, that you've been able to create I mean, the project in itself writing the book, but also kind of reaching out to people and sharing your story. I actually remember you from social media back then, and I was really moved at the time. I think it was, what was it, 2737, '20 '18 maybe. But I remember you were really affected by your father's loss at the time. And I think at that time, I didn't have the experience, obviously, that I had now, so I couldn't connect to the same extent with it at the time. I remember thinking I was really impressed, but also very moved by your stories. There was a part of me that couldn't get it, I think the the bit I'm getting now.
[00:37:27] Speaker 3: And that's not your fault. That's not your fault.
[00:37:30] Dr Marianne Trent: Yeah. No. No. Of course not. But I think it just shows you how that unravels as you go through life. And at that time, I thought that I was immortal, that death happens in your nineties. And and then suddenly, when you're 36 and you get a terminal diagnosis, it's like, oh, that is not meant to happen. And then you get confronted with those fears of death.
[00:37:56] Speaker 3: But also, do you not miss that version of yourself a little bit?
[00:38:00] Dr Marianne Trent: Yeah. A bit. A bit
[00:38:02] Speaker 3: that was less deep. I was not as good a human then. Mhmm. I wasn't probably as good a psychologist, but I might just make my peace with that.
[00:38:12] Dr Marianne Trent: But but there's also the the other side I think that counterbalances it that in some ways I feel like I'm living my life better now. I think I've appreciate things more. I often refer to it as I miss the naive part of me that thought that life was never ending and you could you always had another day and life would just continue so carefree. But it also is a fantasy and that we really want to live a life that is just a fantasy. It's the cost of it, suppose, isn't it?
[00:38:45] Speaker 3: Also how lucky we are. We got to be in our thirties before we'd had the blinkers really. You know, that's also very fortunate because you know many of the people that we work with have had chaos and grief and loss and destruction from very very
[00:39:02] Dr Marianne Trent: early Exactly. I felt much more prepared to deal with these things. And I had a lot of support. I've had my analyst. I had my friends, psychology friends who were very kind of good at talking to me about these things. So I I just felt like I had the capacity to deal with it even though it was very distressing and terrible. But I had the capacity to deal with it, which is very different to when if it happened earlier.
[00:39:27] Speaker 3: Which is less overwhelming even when it Yeah. Feels
[00:39:31] Dr Marianne Trent: Yeah. Overwhelming. Exactly. Exactly. And it sounds to me that that was kind of quite a mechanism for you in your grief journey just just reading the pages in your book, but also reading about the what you call it? Dead dad club? Is that what you call it?
[00:39:49] Speaker 3: Yeah. That's I've forgotten it used to be called that. So part of me wanted to call it the dead dad club. I used to have a DVC. Yeah. Which was the people that that had lost their dads or, you know, had grieved. And not all of them had had a dad. But, yeah, for me, that was a playful idea of what to call the book. But actually, we know is actually that's potentially quite triggering Yeah. For somebody who might be about to lose their parent to pick up a book called the Dead and Dad Club. Probably, it would have been a bit more of a click baity headline, which might have got more media attention. I think that sort of book is probably easier to write as a celebrity than than as a as an average person. But, yeah, there was you know, I felt really lucky to have my DDC around me and I wanted other people to have that experience of of being held, of being validated, as being seen as important.
[00:40:39] Dr Marianne Trent: And so almost like self preserving energy, the very resilient ways of kind of reaching out, connecting, and and building the community around you that was at the palm of your hands. You can just grab it. You can grab your phone, you can text someone. I remember you saying you could text someone in middle of the night and someone will always respond because there were so many people in the group, which makes it so intimate. And I wonder whether you can say a bit more about that, what that was like.
[00:41:08] Speaker 3: Well, they were always separate conversations. So the DDC were never connected with each other. This was always just kind of my of people that I was messaging. So they were never together. I think the one exception to that was a WhatsApp group between myself and two other psychologists. Right. But that was not specifically just linked to grief. Mhmm. But other than that, yeah, it was all separate. But yeah, I could leave a conversation there with somebody and then have a conversation with someone else and they would it was like constantly being enveloped and supported. Does that make sense?
[00:41:48] Dr Marianne Trent: Yeah. Yeah. So it was just kind of checking in coming in when you needed it and then coming out of it and getting the help you needed at the time, but not feeling obliged to carry on with with something when it didn't feel useful or maybe you didn't have time or you didn't feel like it. It's like a really important ability that you were able to apply.
[00:42:12] Speaker 3: Safe space to be however you are. So Uh-huh. You know, when you're a parent and you will experience this for yourself, you need to be immersed in the moment. But sometimes you have, you know, sometimes when you're playing peekaboo for the fiftieth time that day, he doesn't feel that authentic anymore. You know? And so it's almost like you need to be able to have those more adult ugly parts of yourself still met whilst also doing the the bath time and the playtime and, you know, snack time and managing the the nap time and, you know, the burping and the baby massage classes and the the getting to the school run on time and all of that stuff. Mhmm. You know, very important part of my identity at that time was grief. I needed to have that validated, supported, and explored.
[00:43:10] Dr Marianne Trent: Yeah.
[00:43:10] Speaker 3: Perhaps maybe a therapist might have been helpful, but at that time in my life, I had no time. And because I was on maternity leave, I know. Yeah. Well, I was on maternity leave for some of it when my dad was unwell, not when he died. But your priorities, I think, when you have a young family as well. The idea that you'd begin to spend lots of money on yourself for therapy, that that can feel a little bit decadent. And after my dad died, he left me some inheritance that I actually decided to invest in my future self which I think has been really really powerful as well. So I decided I wanted to train in an approach that would help people with grief and trauma. I was working in kind of a complex trauma service at the time anyway but I trained in EMDR eye movement desensitization and reprocessing and then that really did help empower me to start my own business but also helped me have that kind of before and after. You know, actually when my dad was around I wasn't trained in the MDR and now I am. And in order to kind of move forward and get the most for his money that he'd kind of given me to train, It felt really important that I that I do that and I complete that that I that I get out there and I get this book baby out into the world which interestingly I'd I don't know how he'd feel he'd feel about. He he loved chatting. So he would love the chatty aspect of it, but he would have thought he wasn't worth writing a book about or in honor of. But for me, that was part of the reason to do it more and to really help people to be able to feel contained and validated in whatever they're experiencing.
[00:44:57] Dr Marianne Trent: Mhmm. So that was a really important things you cherished about him, but also how you've been able to metabolize it into something that helped you develop. And I remember he mentioned earlier about how EMDR helped you process some of that, some of those memories of the loss and kind of maybe shifted something internally because that's that's another thing. I mean, I use EMDR as well with my clients, and I I also think it's had such a powerful potential to shift certain memories or cognitions that feel very stuck, especially when there was a traumatic element of loss. And, obviously, someone's going through cancer treatments. I mean, that was very much for me. There's a lot of trauma involved in that period of time. And death itself can be trauma, not always, but sometimes that element can also be very traumatic.
[00:45:55] Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely. I think recently in media there's been lots of discussions around the assisted dying bill and whether that should or shouldn't be allowed and sort of see both sides of that argument really. But I think ultimately for me the choices for that person. If it's not for them, they didn't have to do it. But palliative care isn't always hearts and flowers. It's horrendous sometimes. And really my dad had no life for probably the last couple of months before he died. It's not that humane, is it? You know, there's some very special times in that, but not that nice is it? I know this is a whole separate topic, whole separate episode probably but
[00:46:43] Dr Marianne Trent: It's so important to talk about that.
[00:46:45] Speaker 3: Yeah. Like dignity in death is really important.
[00:46:48] Dr Marianne Trent: Yeah. I mean, can relate. I mean, obviously, we could probably go on for another three hours about death and dying and how you die with dignity, but also how you prepare for death and how much choice do you have about that. But there's something really powerful about being able to to say it, and then there's always something really quite uncomfortable about saying, you know, what it's like when you have cancer and that the last few months of your life are really not that great. For my husband, it was a lot of pain and he wasn't able to eat at all. He was on intravenous feeding. So so these things that kind of take away most of the pleasure from life.
[00:47:30] Speaker 3: It really dehumanizes you, doesn't it? Think especially the cancers where you can't eat, was the same with my dad because you can't just go to a coffee shop and have a cake and a cup of tea and that's really hard because for somebody who biscuits and cake and cups of tea are really important to then take that out of their life and to not be able to interact at mealtimes. It's really hard.
[00:47:54] Dr Marianne Trent: Yeah. Especially around Christmas or, you know, when you Yeah. Yeah. So these are the aspects that you kind of makes you question what's right, what's wrong, and what's more humane, what isn't. You know? Is it are you supposed to just wait until you die, basically? So, yeah, another probably another topic for another episode or or two, at least.
[00:48:17] Speaker 3: But
[00:48:19] Dr Marianne Trent: I suppose what I'm kind of left with listening to you, Marianne, about your ideas of kind of being so open, so genuine, and so kind of honest about your experiences and not shying away with the not so pretty side of grief. It's, I think, so freeing and so validating just just just listening that we don't have to pretend, we don't have to hide away from from those feelings, and and just seeing you seven years after his death and still having those moments of sadness and and tears. It's and being able to deal with it, you know, because we've been able to to look at that and moved on to other things and see where you are now, how well you're doing.
[00:49:05] Speaker 3: I'm I'm able to grieve Yeah. And yet I'm also able to go and have some lunch Yeah. In a bit, you know. And Yeah. I will be going to pick up my car from its MOT soon. Like, it's okay to be in motion. It's okay to be unfinished, but also I can be functional within that. And I guess my capacity for being functional has increased. Whereas in the early days, maybe, you know, getting the car MOT would have been the only thing I could do that day. Whereas now I've you know I can have more plates spinning but also like you say we stand closer to our grief at different times and different different times of the year and that's okay too. Know I will I will bring everything to a halt on the December 20 at the right moment at the right time to really connect with that and that's okay.
[00:49:52] Dr Marianne Trent: Yes. And and there's also something I'm hearing perhaps is your the tender side that kind of comes up and helps you grow. And, you know, you were obviously saying about leaving the NHS and working, building your private practice, and and putting so much effort into just growing your identity as a practicing psychologist and watching your busy on social media and being so generous with your time is is really quite striking. And, you know, and that connection that you've made between your father and how how you've been able to use inheritance to kind of help you grow in those ways and kind of pushing yourself. I think you said something in the book about him working, having his own business and, you know, I'm thinking if he was able to do it, I should be able to do it too. And and that was really quite beautiful that you you were able to kind of connect and take something meaningful out of that relationship.
[00:50:55] Speaker 3: I think that was in our pre podcast chat actually, when we met last week and we were talking about actually, well, I knew being self employed was was viable because he had done it for so many years. I'm sorry we didn't ever get a chance to talk about my experience of being self employed, but I don't know. I have that sense of him having an overarching sense of it anyway. You know, I don't I don't know what my spiritual beliefs are, you know. I don't want him watching me every second of the day because that would be awful. But I have that sense that he sees what matters.
[00:51:27] Dr Marianne Trent: That he's with you even though he's not there. So you found a different space for him in your life and in your mind which isn't too it's not crippling, it's actually empowering. And I think that's the massive shift which I think seven years down the line, you can see how things have evolved and changed, and and it's just a beautiful example of grieving and living. And it's just so great to have you in a podcast and for you to be able to share that and be so vulnerable with us. It's really heart warming, but also so validating that we just don't have to be constantly in control of everything because we're not. That's not what life is like.
[00:52:10] Speaker 3: No. We don't be perfect people, know. There's no such thing and just come as you are.
[00:52:15] Dr Marianne Trent: That's a beautiful way of fending it. Just take it as it comes, you know. And see what's coming next and and just yeah. So thank you so much, Marianne, for today. It's been a real pleasure and honor.
[00:52:28] Speaker 3: Thank you for everything you do and thanks for everybody listening.
[00:52:32] Dr Marianne Trent: So before we finish, I just wanted to to say that we will be putting some links for Marianne to where to find her and when to, you know, find out more about her amazing book. And so I'm just showing the cover to really I'm still reading and still admiring your work. Thank you. So we'll put some information on where to find the book and where to find you and your website.
[00:52:54] Speaker 3: Thank you. I should also mention that I have a podcast of my own which is called the aspiring psychologist podcast so looking at anything that's relevant to anyone pursuing a career in mental health really. But yeah if people want to learn more about that that'd be a great place to to have a listen.
[00:53:11] Dr Marianne Trent: Perfect. So, yes, all the links will be in the show notes. But thank you so much for today.
[00:53:15] Speaker 3: Thank you.
[00:53:16] Dr Monika Wieliczko: Thank you for joining us. I hope you found it useful. Connect with me on Facebook and Instagram under Guide to Afterlife for more brief tips and resources. Visit guide to afterlife.com to send me your questions and to take part in the grief MOT, your free first aid program for grief. See you next Tuesday for yet another stimulating conversation.
