Full Transcript
[00:00:07] Dr Monika Wieliczko: Welcome to your guide to afterlife, your go to podcast for young widows. I'm your host, doctor Monika Wieliczko, a psychologist and your fellow widow. Each episode brings you insights from world renowned grief experts and authors discussing grief issues and their personal experiences of loss. My aim is to challenge the way you think, empower you to face your feelings, and help you develop resilient ways to grief. Move beyond surviving each day and visit guidetoafterlife.com to take part in the grief MOT, your first aid program for grief.
[00:00:52] Dr Kara Davey: Today, we're diving into an incredibly tender and complex topic of infertility grief after losing a life partner. Losing your spouse in your thirties or forties can often mean mourning not just the presence of your partner, but also the shared dreams of building or expanding a family. For some, this loss is compounded by the devastating experiences of pregnancy loss, adding layers of heartbreak and uncertainty. Joining me today is Dr Kara Davey, a clinical psychologist who specialises in supporting individuals going through baby loss and infertility grief. She brings her expertise and compassion to this conversation, helping us all understand how to navigate this incredibly complex mix of emotions of grieving your life partner while also longing for parenthood. So whether you personally experience this type of loss or know someone who has, this episode offers insight, support, and help. So let's get started. Welcome, Kara. It's so lovely to have you here today.
[00:02:04] Speaker 3: Thank you very much. Thank you for inviting me on.
[00:02:06] Dr Kara Davey: So if you could maybe just start by introducing yourself a bit and telling what got you interested in specialising in this very tender and incredibly important area of psychology?
[00:02:19] Speaker 3: So, yeah, I was a psychologist in the NHS for many years specializing in trauma. So difficult life events and traumatic life events and supporting people with the adjustment to that, whether that's medically to injuries or, you know, to the trauma of the event itself. So it's something I've always kind of been interested in. I then experienced kind of multiple miscarriages, a stillbirth and a kind of difficult fertility journey including loss myself. And I guess through that, I realized that a lot of the trauma experience I'd had was kind of helpful for me in the process of my grief and kind of understanding some of the impact of that. I realized that the kind of increased empathy I had as a result of the lived experience meant that actually this is something I would really, really like to support other people with. So, yeah, it's just an area I'm extremely passionate about. I think often with any grief, it can be that society don't fully understand the kind of impact of that.
[00:03:14] Dr Kara Davey: So it can be really helpful to have clinicians working in the area who have lived experience too. Absolutely. And that's exactly the type of people I'm really drawn to bringing this expertise in working, especially with trauma, as you mentioned, but also having this more empathic, more that kind of, like, lived experience, as you said, a level of understanding of what it's like to be going through those often very traumatic losses and the layers of those experiences. So you've you've worked in NHS, but you now work in private practice. Is that right?
[00:03:50] Speaker 3: Yeah. So I've now a founder of Kara Clinical Psychologist Mhmm. In Sussex. And so that's myself and there's other psychologists within the team as well. And as you said, we specialize in supporting with infertility, baby loss, and traumatic grief kind of more generally. And there are other people in the team who support children, adults, kind of a range of different difficulties. And then I also have Doctor Davey coaching, which is more about ADHD support and, yeah, coaching and organizational support.
[00:04:20] Dr Kara Davey: Gosh. So you're definitely busy with all those different angles and yeah. So I was looking at your website before. There's just so much information there, we will we'll talk about it a bit later with the end about those kind of resources that you've got there and what we can actually use on this journey of grief. And I suppose what I really wanted to start today is thinking with you about this particular experience of losing a life partner in your thirties or forties, which often means that it happens at the time when most people are thinking of having family or already having a family or thinking of expanding family, which is such a tender and important moment in life where you should be growing and developing. And when this terrible experience hits us unexpectedly or whether it's a prolonged illness or or a sudden death, it just shatters everything. Not just that relationship with the person who died, but every single aspect of your life. And I think children and and kind of hope for children maybe or expanding family, having more children is one of those things that definitely for me has been something that's been on my mind from the very beginning. Because when my husband received a diagnosis of cancer, I also received, you know, some form of diagnosis of, well, I might not never be a mother because we were just about to embark on this journey of parenthood, of wanting to get pregnant, and then this devastating news was brought to us. So I think this is the angle I kind of wanted to have this conversation with you, just thinking about people who've have been trying to get pregnant for for years and then nothing happened or were just about to start trying for family and and the illness just completely derails their plans. And I'm just thinking how these kind of layers of losses, secondary losses, how they complicate this grieving process. If you could just maybe tell us a little bit about your experience, your perspective.
[00:06:33] Speaker 3: Mhmm. Yeah. I think it's really important to think about secondary losses. And I don't know if everyone knows what we mean when we kind of talk about secondary losses, but essentially, we're thinking about not just the loss, the devastating loss of your partner themselves, but all the other things that change as a result of kind of their experience. And I think so many people talk about feeling isolated. Like, there's very few people, if any, in your network who are experiencing that same experience and, you know, suddenly things become triggering because other people are talking about their partners or their hopes for the future or they're having children or, you know, so suddenly there's all of these other things that you lose as a result of kind of finding out that your partner's going to die or, you know, has died. So there's, you know, secondary losses of all of those other things. And as you talked about, often they are dreams or a life plan or firm plans kind of trying for a child. And I think it's incredibly hard. One of the things that's so difficult about secondary losses is they often just aren't understood by other people. I think when you go to other people and say that your, you know, partner is unwell and they're gonna die or they have died, people will be thinking of the loss. They won't be thinking necessarily of all of those other things around it. And I think it adds to that isolation of people don't get it or they they think that that doesn't matter as much. So, you know, maybe in that kind of context where we're talking about, oh, well, don't worry about children right now. Obviously, the focus is on the battle with cancer or that support. And I think as a result of other people not understanding and validating or under you know, kind of really getting that, it can lead to this feeling of, well, I should be grateful. It's so much worse for my partner or this is where my focus should be, and there can become a real invalidation of the self of I shouldn't feel like this or it's selfish or I feel guilty for thinking that or how can I even consider those future plans when actually my partner's kind of died or about to die? So I think there's this huge invalidation, as I say, of others and the self, and there can be kind of a real self criticism, criticism, you know, people beating themselves up about it. And we know that after grief or when you're experiencing kind of difficult life events, one of the biggest things that helps with coping is social support. Having a good understanding kind of social support network really, really helps with that kind of coping process. So if you've then got lots of people who aren't understanding all of the challenges you're experiencing, obviously, that works the other way and kind of make that experience much, much more difficult. And I think, you know, I hear a lot people talking about this idea of my whole life has been battered, you know, whether it's losing a partner, whether it's that idea of losing a baby or infertility keep trying and struggling. Like, after these events, what happens is people feel that they're kind of their identity shatters, their whole world changes, and that they change as a person. And as a result of that, people often then beat themselves up. Well, I'm not happy for friends anymore or, you know, like, these really exciting things that are happening for my friends. I should be celebrating. Old me would have celebrated with them and would have been excited and would have loved that. And, actually, people feel like now suddenly I'm a bad friend, I'm a bad person, like, you know, I can't celebrate in those things. They're difficult. And, you know, for other people, they might be like, oh, you know, some people can kind of sideline you when you're experiencing that because they're like, oh, well, I don't want to trigger them or they won't want to come or they won't celebrate or they don't get it or so. You know, it can then add to that further isolation as well. I think there's a lot of things that people are trying to kind of cope with already in the grief, and then it complicates the grieving process. And a lot of people, as a result of that, then feel like they have to kind of hold it in or pretend to kind of mask and pretend to be okay. Well, I shouldn't tell people about that or I should just pretend to be okay and kind of carry on. Again, that gets in the way of the grieving process because we know that grief is a process that needs to be felt. You know, there aren't a right and wrong way to grieve, but people need to feel the emotions that are there Yeah. You know, at the time that they come up for them. And, you know, if you're holding that down and feeling like I can't do that because I'm wrong or other people think I'm wrong or it's misunderstood, it can really get in the way Absolutely. Grieving in the way you need.
[00:11:01] Dr Kara Davey: And I think you said you touched on so many important aspects there that part of me is just like, oh gosh. Yes. This just adds so much depth into this conversation. Because as you were talking, I was thinking about what you just described about social isolation. Because when you're thirties or forties, many of your friends are having children or about to have children, and there's always this kind of sense of not being on the same page or just seeing them being happy or going through their own ups and downs that you can't really be fully part of, as you said, if you feel that there's something about your own experiences that doesn't fit that narrative. And I think often what we notice, and I definitely felt that myself, is that unless we can acknowledge the elephant in the room or kind of make it explicit, like I would often say to some of my friends, especially when my husband was ill or after he died, you know, how angry I was with the world and, you know, just kind of putting it out there really helped to clear out the air almost and just kind of helping them to see that just because I'm angry doesn't mean that I'm not going to be happy for their success in in life, but it but it's also very painful to see sometimes in the moments when I don't want to see a friend who've just had a baby and won't be as as easy. And I think there's something about almost acknowledging that those feelings are normal. How else are you supposed to feel? But as you're saying, if we don't make that room for those conflicting contradicting feelings, which I think in general in society, we expect to have very unified or almost like a kind of clear path to what we feel, how we feel, how we experience, but that's not how life is, and that's not how we are as human beings, that we always have very conflicting emotions about everyone and and anything in life. Nothing is very kind of straightforward. And I think that aspect is so key because as you said, if we then end up feeling isolated because we can't acknowledge those conflicting feelings, we can't say, well, I'm really happy for you, but I'm also really hurting inside, then that's gonna be all your social support cut off from you. And and as you said, it it makes it much harder, doesn't it, to then grieve and to use that support circle, which is why I think a lot of people kind of are looking for other people who've experienced the same form of loss to gain that support and understanding.
[00:13:41] Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I completely agree. And I think that's why, as you say, people turn to podcasts or support groups or, you know, kind of a sense of who is it that will get how I'm feeling because, you know, perhaps it's really hard. As you were saying there, like, sometimes it's great if you can explain, you know, you're very articulate and able to explain to people this is how I'm feeling and, you know, the both and and but some people, that's really difficult. Like, if you've become a person and if you don't understand how you're feeling and you don't know it's valid, then it's really hard to kind of Yeah. Express that. But also, it's kind of self advocating And sometimes we're not encouraged to No. To do that. Or for some people, it's really hard to speak up and say, this is how I'm feeling or this is what I need. It's, you know, it's a really difficult ask. And I think, you know, certainly when I'm working with people experiencing infertility or, you know, kind of baby loss, if they're getting invalidating responses from other people like, oh, maybe you should move on now or, you know, do you think you're thinking about them too much? You know, these kind of really unhelpful comments. For some people, immediately, it's really hard. Like, they immediately take it that they're doing that wrong, but it's really hard to advocate. And we might talk about is it helpful to let them know something about how you're feeling or what would help you. And for some people, that's great. For other people, you're asking them to do something that's a, you know, a life skill they haven't learned. It's too much. And, yeah, it's too much and it's far from where they are. And a lot of people will understandably feel angry that they even need to do that. It's like this is a time of your life where you're experiencing so much difficulty and distress and potential trauma anyway to then be on top of that, ah, it's my job to also educate people about how I feel or what's going on. You know, a lot of people understandably feel quite frustrated about that, and I think it's a a fine line, isn't it? A lot of people like, why can't somebody else just read up on how that might feel? Or, yeah, why don't other people get it or at least try to? And, yeah, as you say, then people tend to turn to support groups or, you know, I think it's really important, I say to people, finding the right people to share things with. So if you do feel able to kind of advocate for yourself and you get a very dismissive response or unhelpful response from others, then it's good to know that maybe that's not a person to share with. Like, who are the people who are empathic and supportive in your network? And at least try to understand even if they haven't experienced it because, yeah, it's a it's a big ask to say how you feel and that land on ears that can't hear it.
[00:16:11] Dr Kara Davey: It has to be with the right person as you said. Yes. What you're describing is just such a complex situation where, as you said, on one hand, the capacity and readiness to talk about these things, which, as you're saying, sometimes accessing that kind of support group, peer support group, or psychotherapeutic group, or one to one therapy can be that space where you can actually unpack those boxes and look into these things. If you haven't had that experience before, someone actually helping you to understand how you feel and think and what's been hiding behind those layers of grief, really. So as you're saying, it is a very complicated process. But I also think that in general, in the society, we don't really have that permission to express and feel and think. It's not just the individual. I think in general, people struggle with tolerating that the other person might have a reaction or might have different opinion about something. And so then it becomes a very kind of withdrawn kind of interaction. And and when you're going through something so painful and the other person is saying doesn't know what to say and says something a bit silly, which happens all the time. And, you know, I'm I've got number of examples when someone said to me something completely irrational because it wasn't malicious, but it was just coming from their sense of desperation perhaps or wanting to fix it or wanting to help. But, obviously, that wasn't what I needed at the time. And and as you say, yes, it is very frustrating. I definitely can relate to that. So even your ability to express your feelings might not be enough to, in some ways, to have that communication. So having the people around you who can take it, you know, who just can take your pain is invaluable.
[00:18:02] Speaker 3: Yeah. And I think that's a really important point is that when you're sharing with someone, like, yes, you want to try and find people within your network if you can who are empathic, but they also need to be able to hold, you know, if you really say how you feel, the devastation, the sadness. Like, if you explain the layers of grief, having lost a partner, having feeling, you know, that fear of will I have a family or lost the dream or kind of all of those other things. It's an awful lot of sadness and pain to hold and not everybody is able to hold that. And I think that's really hard. And again, I think it can be difficult for people feeling like when people back away because they're finding that hard or they avoid you or I think sometimes there can be an understandable kind of anger around you have the choice to back away from this temporary sadness that I'm bringing and that actually this is my lived experience every day. Like, I can't I can't escape it. I can't avoid it. But, yeah, it's really hard to find those who can hold Yeah. That level of pain. And I think that's one
[00:19:04] Dr Kara Davey: of the reasons I kind of moved across into this area is because so many people would say it's hard. It's hard to find people who really get it and can hold it. Yes. Absolutely. Which is so incredibly valuable having people like yourself who offer those kind of services and can provide the environment where don't shy away from thinking and feeling everything that's coming up. And one of the areas I think that we're tapping into a bit is is the feelings of guilt as well, and that really kind of resonated with me as you were describing this especially that stage where someone's terminally ill and you're thinking, oh, it's obviously overwhelming and it takes over your whole life. And then after they die, it continues this whole narrative that this person died. And and it's obviously devastating for anyone who's going through this, but the unspoken area of grief for the person who's left behind, which is, you know, often is about family infertility, wanting to have family, not knowing when it whether it's gonna happen or not, and the guilt that comes with it. I remember it very acutely thinking, am I just being selfish? Should I be rethinking about it? And is this the right time to be thinking about it when my husband is so acutely ill? And but you can't stop because it the way it's self preserving mechanism, you're wanting to have children, especially when you're facing death. It's paradoxically, I think, often the time when we are so acutely aware of the limitations of time and opportunities and what's left, suddenly you you get hit by those realizations. And for me, personally, it was a a time when I suddenly switched from feeling very anxious about becoming a mother to thinking, I really need to become a mother right now. And, obviously, that was impossible, and it kind of added another layer of complexity to the whole picture. But, yeah, but I remember being very angry with my husband who was so ill even though it wasn't his fault, but you can't help feeling angry with the situation with what it left you with. And then this massive dilemma of grieving on the one hand after they died, and then thinking, what what now? You know, how can I what can I do with this? So I think guilt just plays such an important role in all this. I suppose I'm just kind of thinking about those different ways of coping with this conflicting feelings. On the one hand, guilt and grief and the other longing for family. I wonder what do you think about that kind of position, that that situation, this conflict.
[00:21:52] Speaker 3: Yeah. Thank you for sharing your experiences and I think it's really helpful that you work in this area and support other people, you know, because you understand that. But, yeah, I'm genuinely sorry that you experienced that. Although I think you speak very eloquently there about, you know, it's very real that feeling of guilt, like the feeling of guilt. You know, people can feel guilty that they are the survivor. They can feel Mhmm. Guilty as you say that they are angry. Like, we know anger is a very normal feeling, know, when you're grieving to be angry about the situation, but also about the person even if you know it's not their fault. And, you know, those are difficult emotions to be holding, but then also about that idea of, well, how do I move on afterwards? Like, to have a family afterwards, does that mean getting another partner? Like, you know, for lots of people after they've lost a partner, just the idea of having another partner brings up guilt and, you know, that idea of, well, I'll I'll perhaps maybe get to move on to this stage of life, maybe not. They won't get to feel it or, you know, there's so many things that somebody can feel guilty about. There's so much complex emotion. And, again, that's really hard to talk about, I think, with others. Like, whilst we know it's really normal to feel angry at the person, you speak to somebody else. They might be like, what? You feel angry with them? Like, it's not their fault. You know, again, it might be that kind of invalidating response or it might not feel safe. Lots of people kind of fear that judgment of, well, if I really say how I feel, what will other people think? Or, you know, will people think I'm moving on too quickly? Or if I choose to be a solo parent, like, what will people think about that? Will there be judgment in terms of that? Also, yeah, I think there's so many complex emotions, but I think guilt is a really, really important one for us to kind of acknowledge and talk about. And that longing doesn't go away because you feel guilty or because you love your partner and because you're in the middle of, you know, such a difficult situation. And I think when you're losing a partner to illness, it's, you know, what we term ambiguous loss. So there's a long period of time where you haven't lost them yet, but you know you're going to lose them. And you're trying to go through all the emotions and grief and almost kind of coming to terms with losing them, before they're here. And again, that can bring up guilt for people of like, oh, I'm already thinking about when they're dead and they're not dead Yeah. Yet or, you know, so and at the same time, I'm thinking about how my life will move on when they're not moving on. You know, it can be really, really hard because the person, you know, is still in front of you in some capacity and that you're feeling all of those emotions. And some people want to share that with their partner and some people don't. Again, there's a layer of guilt of how could I possibly talk about this? Other people have conversations with their partner when they're losing them or, you know, partners might say, want you to move on. I want you to, you know, kind of start a a family with someone else. So, you know, some people might be like, you know, set yourself free. Don't stop your life here at this point. For others, that's a conversation that's so difficult they might not have. And I think sometimes whether that conversation's been had or that awareness again to talk about that might make some difference to kind of how people cope with it.
[00:25:01] Dr Kara Davey: Yeah. I I think that is really spot on. And I mean, I personally was left with the feeling that there was almost like an expectation from my husband that I will grieve for quite a long time before I but eventually, would move on, but it it was never kind of presented as if he was giving me that kind of permission or encouraging me to think about my future. It was more I think he really struggled with coming to terms, obviously, with what was happening to him, but it kind of left me with this sour feeling that I was completely lost in all that. And in some ways, I think it's easy for women as well to be put in that position of a carer and bearing the costs of looking after the person who's dying or very unwell. And, yes, it it was very difficult for me to think about, okay. What am I gonna do next? It was just paralyzing in many ways. And then whenever I have conversations with people who've had this experience of, okay. We've had this conversation, and I know I had permission to move forward with my life and and think about having family. And that kind of recognition was there, I think, in some ways, makes it much, much easier to to feel less guilty, I think, or to feel that there was some kind of closure. There was the kind of willingness to acknowledge that this can happen or that this is a possibility and that the other person would love you to be happy again after they're gone. And I think in many circumstances, sadly, this doesn't happen. Not necessarily because the other person doesn't allow this to happen or is really feeling conflicted, which is obviously normal as well to have those conflicting feelings if you're dying and the other person is remaining alive. Mhmm. But, yeah, it's just such an incredibly complex area.
[00:26:57] Speaker 3: Yeah. And I think you're right. Actually, for some people, they might get that permission. Some people might not have the conversation, but for others, they might actively be a, I don't want you to move on. Like, we committed to each other Yeah. For life or, you know, like, we said we would do this together and some partners in their grief might genuinely be like, I don't want you to do it with anyone else or not even think about it. And as you say, just there'd be this expectation of, of course, you'll be grieving and, you know, of course, you'll do those things. So yeah. And I do think, you know, you were saying there around it's easier for people when that permission has been given in some sense and I think you're right in time, like, they can get to a point where later on when people have kind of processed some of their grief, they're a bit further down the grief journey, they might be able to you know, often I say to people, what is it you want to hold onto about this experience or the person you've lost? Like, what is it that's really, really important and you're gonna hold? And what are you now ready to let go of or, you know, kind of where do you now want to go and give yourself permission or, you know, and in that moment, they might come in touch with those kind of conversations and say, actually, this is what they wanted for me or but I think if you present that to someone too early or, you know, again, well meaning family members or friends like, look, he told you Yeah. Told you to move on. He wouldn't want you to be this sad. You know, again, it can be quite invalidating. So I think there's really something around timing, isn't there? Absolutely. Of, yes, this is probably gonna be really helpful at some point, but I think there's a a real awareness if there's any kind of family or friends listening, I suppose, in terms of being careful not to push at the right time Absolutely. For these and and being careful not to push that too soon because there's yeah. Sometimes people really need to hold on to again, going back to that guilt, some people are like, I don't wanna let go of the pain or the guilt or because what does that mean about me? What does that say about me? Does that invalidate how important they were to me? Or, you know, so sometimes people need to hold on to that until, you know, they get to a point where they're like, okay. Now maybe I'm ready to see that some things can be held on to and some people some things can be let go of.
[00:29:05] Dr Kara Davey: Yes. It all takes time as you're saying, doesn't it? It's not very kind of Yeah. Straightforward. Okay. Now this is done and we move on to, you know, life after after loss in a very kind of straightforward way. It never is. And and I think what you're again tapping into is this ability to hold onto those conflicting and complex feelings, which I think comes with time and as you said, often with extensive support from people who are understanding and kind of able to sit with those feelings that, yes, you can be longing and being still holding them in your heart and still be, in some ways, grieving intensely, but also beginning to think about yourself and life after loss. But but that's a very I mean, emotionally and even cognitively, it's a very demanding stage to reach. I think for me, it was always a very transient one. Like, it's not like you suddenly wake up and you feel, oh, yes. I'm I'm ready to have a family now. Or now I'm gonna, you know, move on. I don't think that's ever this clean and tidy unless we kind of block something out and say, well, actually, yes, let's not think about the past and just focus on the future, which often is what people are trying to do when they're trying to rush a bit or kind of yeah. I mean, I definitely felt at times when when I was feeling really angry, it was kind of easier to just sit with with certain feelings if, you know, if I was kind of in a certain state of mind. Let's say, whereas another times I was feeling really bad, really guilty for thinking or wanting to move forward in my life and then feeling angry again that there was some kind of expectation that I shouldn't. So, you know, that it's just such a mind field, isn't it?
[00:31:09] Speaker 3: It's such a mind field, and it just makes that grieving process so difficult. And I think, you know, one of the things you on earlier was that kind of almost that urgency of Mhmm. Well, now I really need to try and become, you know, a mom or, you know, kind of move forward into that kind of parenting journey. And I think it's really tricky because what a lot of people will say after they lose someone generally, not necessarily just a partner, is that they get to a point when they go, well, I really wanna make the most of my life. I realize how fragile life is or, you know, kind of how quickly it can be taken away or, you know, what I really wanna take from this or take as a gift from that person that I lost is that I'm gonna really make the most of things. And there's a real difficulty when that making the most of things when, know, the person you've lost is your partner and then making the most of things is something that you would have done with them or you plan to do, you dreamed about doing with them or you had actually been trying towards and, you know, again, as we've said, they you know, the other person is not gonna get the opportunity to. It's, you know, it's such a conflict between what we know about what helps people and brings comfort in grief because suddenly it becomes layered with this guilt or should I, shouldn't I, what my other people think or kind of this oscillation of emotion. So I think it's a, you know, another factor making it even more complex when you're trying to grieve for a partner and longing for a family in amongst it. It's really, really tough because it's literally going against what most people would find helpful in their grief to be able to kind of make the most of things because it brings up such conflicting emotions.
[00:32:44] Dr Kara Davey: Well, just I think why loss of a life partner in some ways often comes with those risks of having more complicated grief responses, which is, as you're saying, you know, kind of feeling really stuck or or not knowing what to do, how to rebuild your life after loss, how to invest, reinvest in other relationships, how to experience joy, all these kind of areas or thinking or planning for the future. And I kind of almost feel that there's a part of me that thinks, oh, you don't know what it's like until you experience it. Just isn't necessarily true, but it's often this kind of thought that it's unbelievably hard to explain to someone what it really means, you know, to put it into words because it's not just a kind of cognitive description. It's such a visceral and overwhelmingly complex experience that you can't just put to one side. Never gonna be a fully translatable way of kind of explaining something so complex. So I kind of understand why so many people kind of get really stuck. Not in a kind of necessarily terrible way, but there's some certain areas that are very touchy, very raw, and very difficult to kind of shift unless we have that kind of extra support from someone who understands it, not just on a lived experience basis, but also on this kind of deeper level of how complex our minds are and how hard it is, as you said earlier, to really grasp the complexity of our experiences when grief comes into the picture and kind of shatters some of those beliefs, some of those hopes. So it's yeah. I'm just sometimes I'm really surprised when those conversations emerge on the podcast how it kind of puts me in touch really with reality of how difficult this task of grieving is. Not in a way to put people down and kind of discourage from thinking about it, but just acknowledging that reality that this is probably a lifelong process that you kind of keep going through and working through as you go along with your life. And those experiences, those conflicting feelings are absolutely normal. I mean, how else are you supposed to feel?
[00:35:15] Speaker 3: Absolutely. Yeah. There's a couple of things I think you said there that are really really important. I mean, first of all, is that idea of you don't get over grief. Like Mhmm. It changes shape and, you know, like I know you said at the beginning, you know, you used the word hope in the kind of intro. And, yeah, like, that's not to say to anyone, that's it. If you're right in the kind of distress right now having kind of lost someone and it's at the kind of peak, it's not to say you're gonna feel as terrible as this, you know, kind of every day going forward. It does shift and it does change, and there are times that are harder or, you know, kind of it's a bit a bit like ways. But the impact of a loss does it does change you. Like, it does change your identity. It does change how you see the world. It does you know, that experience is big and kind of it is, of course, gonna have an effect on on your life. And, again, I think that's something that sometimes other people don't understand so much. Like, you know, thinking about that idea of if you do long for a family and you go down the journey of solo parenting or you meet another partner and you start to kind of move towards having a family, it might be that other people kind of see that as you've moved on or and actually, it's not moving on as in, okay. Now I've left that chapter behind. It's, yes. I need to live life and move forward and, you know, my needs are important too or I'm living a different part of this journey now, but I'm still holding with me all of the other Mhmm. Emotions and all of that experience. And I think, again, that's something that sometimes people can kinda miss in amongst all of that. Mhmm. So yeah. But I think that's really important. And the other thing that I kind of picked up you were saying around that idea of complicated grief and, you know, I was thinking about, as I said, my background is in trauma. I worked in a trauma service kind of in the NHS before my loss And I don't think people are aware just how common trauma symptoms are, whether it's full blown kind of PTSD. Often we think of PTSD, we think of veterans or but you can have some trauma symptoms or full blown PTSD as a result of losing someone, you know, especially when you're supporting someone through illness, especially when it's sudden, when it's out of life context, you know, for people who've lost a child, you know, it might be their kind of medical expense. There are lots of reasons why. I think Tommy's estimated a third of all miscarriages cause PTSD. And that's not Wow. Former symptoms, full kind of criteria for PTSD, which is kind of more kind of more on that severe end. And then there are other losses and depending on care, the percentage will be higher. And, with losing a partner, actually, the the amount of people who experience trauma as a result of their experiences and kind of everything that follows the kind of consequences and those secondary losses is really, really high. And trauma gets in the way of that grieving process. Often people talk about grief being a natural process that people kind of go through over the process of a couple of years. And, again, because for the conversations we've had, I think that can feel minimizing and it can be used to not provide support by services can kind of say, oh, this is normal, so there's no support. But, actually, for people who are you used the word stuck earlier, if people are kind of feeling stuck in that grief or it's kind of complex and they're really experiencing the full volume of like the extremity of those emotions much further down the line and other people are kind of expecting you to have kind of felt better about it or you're taken right back, sometimes that's because there is trauma underpinning it. You know, I'm surprised how few people are aware that there is evidence based trauma therapy that can really help not to take the grief away and no one's trying to take the grief away. It's got a really important place. Like, grief is love with nowhere to go. Like, that's important. We're not trying to take that away, but I think sometimes that complex kind of, you know, the grief getting stuck and complicated grief is because of trauma. And by working through the trauma, it really enables someone to be able to at least think about and feel the emotions that enable them to go through the grief process. And, yeah, I and I think it's a really difficult balance validating someone that how you're feeling is normal. It's absolutely okay to feel really distressed. And yet for some people, that level of distress is really high because of trauma. So we also don't want someone to feel, oh, I should feel this distress so I won't get any support with it. And I think sometimes that's a difficult balance that people aren't even aware of. Absolutely. They're seeking that assessment of, oh, is there something here in terms of trauma that's adding to my grief and my distress? Yes.
[00:40:00] Dr Kara Davey: I mean, I'm so glad you mentioned this because that's such a crucial message that I'm trying to put across on this podcast is for us, it seems so obvious that there's trauma when there is a complex premature loss because it's just a very traumatizing experience. But for most people, that is not a very accessible knowledge or even an understanding that's not just grief, which is why I think so many people who've experienced such profound losses can't really relate to those messages on social media. Just grieve. Just take your time. It will get better with time, but for some people, it doesn't. It just doesn't shift, as you said, because of the underlying trauma. But unless it's resolved, and it as you're saying, it can be resolved, actually. I've worked with many people in that capacity where once you tackle the the memory that is blocking this normal grieving process, things can really change. And and you don't end up just being stuck in reliving those terrible traumatic moments that completely overwhelmed your mind's capacity to cope. So this this such an important role for us, I think, in in this podcast to to talk about this and just to clarify that grief really doesn't have to be as difficult as it is. Not to say that it isn't difficult. Of course, it is. But there's certain level of difficulty which comes with grief, and it's acceptable, and it's normal. The pain, the rawness of your feelings, that is absolutely expected, and it's part of life. But there's obviously this more ugly side of grief that keeps you really trapped for years for some people, and I think that stops you from moving forward in life. From that kind of point of view of wanting to be moving towards life rather than forgetting about the past, which is what I mean by integrating those two kind of parallel worlds. I often refer them to those kind of, you know, ability to combine both and kind of live through those two different experiences and bringing them together and almost like weaving different layers together and being able to come in and out of your grief and coming into life and thinking about future with time. That's the kind of the ultimate place we kind of end up with our grief naturally. Yes. And we actually have another episode in season one, the trauma of grief with Yvonne Wieliczko and another one about complex grief. So anyone listening to this episode, if you want to think a bit more about trauma of loss, there are two episodes about when grief gets complicated and also the trauma of loss that will be really helpful to revisit. But as he's saying, it's just such a common experience, this traumatic loss and thinking especially if people have lost pregnancy, whether it's alongside the loss of a life partner when they're ill or after they died. And then there's just another layer of complexity that comes in when you were hoping to hold on to that pregnancy and baby, and then there's a loss. I mean, that is incredibly that must be incredibly devastating. It's not something I personally experienced myself, but I just can see that that kind of last bit of that person who's was meant to survive and kind of carry on through that baby is lost. I mean, I just think it's it's never spoken about openly. I think pregnancy loss is in itself is something people often don't want to acknowledge as a normal loss. Even sometimes the the way it's being listed, you you've got death or some other complicated things, and then you've got pregnancy loss as if it's not a death, as if it's not a human being that we're talking about. And and I don't know. It just it's very kind of provoking for me thinking about it this way that it provoked very strong reactions in me thinking about it.
[00:44:10] Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. And if you think that it's only this year that the loss certificates are bought in Yeah. You know, even to acknowledge the life of some little ones who have been lost during pregnancy. So yeah. Absolutely. I think you're right. There is that feeling of it's not acknowledged in the same way at all, and that that in itself can be kind of really traumatic for people. And also, you know, just on the touch of that, just thinking about fertility treatment, like lots of people experience trauma on top of all of the other things we've talked about through fertility treatment, that idea of needing to be injected, the hope and the loss, the, you know, the care. It's, you know, it's very intimate and intrusive kind of care. So, yeah, if you're on a journey after losing a partner of solo parenting and you're going through fertility treatment, like, again, that can be really difficult in itself and you might have that kind of lack of support within that or you might have been on that journey of infertility kind of prior loss and you're already, you know, again, the stats say that people experiencing infertility, about ninety percent come out as depressed. You know, that it's such a high rate of suicidal thoughts just from not being able to I say just I don't wanna minimize that. Like, I mean, without, you know, thinking about a partner, if we're focusing solely on infertility, the rates of distress and trauma are already really, really high. So for people who are trying to navigate the loss of a partner and being had that difficult fertility journey or embarking on a difficult fertility journey afterwards, it's, you know, it's so incredibly difficult and complex. And, yeah, I'm glad, you know, I'm aware trauma's been covered in other episodes, but I'm glad that that's Yeah. You know, been spoken about because I think it is just so so important Mhmm. To bear that in mind and for people to be able to validate themselves if they're experiencing, you know, whether it is going over and over something or whether it is wanting to avoid thinking about it because it's so difficult or, you know, being taken right back there. Like, those things are really important signs that actually someone can support you with reducing some of that distress in amongst it all.
[00:46:18] Dr Kara Davey: Yes. And and on that note, I just wanted to also mention the grief emoji, which is a a free tool that anyone can use on my website, which allows you to have this kind of reflective journey on where you are at the moment, how long it's been, and some questions that you can answer that give you that kind of feedback. Is this looking like a resilient, more normal grief response, or are things getting more complicated for those who are wandering or feeling a bit trapped or stuck. I think it's a really useful tool. It's completely free. Anyone can access it, and you got results straight away. It's not to kind of diagnose anyone with anything because I'm not necessarily in favor of doing that. But if there are complications or if you feel like you you're not sure whether you should seek someone's professional support or if you need some extra help that will give you some indication whether that's a good idea, maybe whether you need to find some more creative ways to support your grieving journey. So the website is GuidetoAfterlife.com, and you can just click on the grief MOT and complete that within three minutes. I think it's as you said, it's so important that we end up thinking about that, especially in the context of multiple losses. And I was just thinking because your practice obviously focuses on baby loss and infertility, Whether there are any kind of things that you could recommend or think about where people can start, but also how to get that support while you're grieving those multiple losses. And, obviously, pregnancy loss or baby loss, fertility. All I mean, it's all kind of in my mind, it's all packed together even though they're obviously very different there might be very different experiences depending on the stage of pregnancy or after birth or, you know, infertility grief. I was wondering what what your thoughts are on that.
[00:48:13] Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, just to say your grief MOT sounds, you know, kind of really helpful and a great great resource out there. I also have for anyone who is has experienced kind of lost a baby or they on the resources that I'll link, there is a video talking more about signs of trauma, what to look for. Amazing. There is a leaflet talking as well, a kind of free leaflet around what does traumatic grief look like. And, again, goes into that idea of, you know, when is this normal and expected and part of processing such a difficult loss and when might there be signs that there could also be an element of trauma and some more specialist kind of trauma support for that might be helpful. And also when you were kind of asking there around what support is available, again there's leaflets looking at what NHS services are available, what charities kind of support kind of for baby loss or infertility and when it might need more kind of specialist from a kind of support and what the options are. So there are there are some kind of resources on website that might help with that. And just to say, I think there are it's sometimes harder to get an NHS service for bereavement itself. And I think depending on a lot of the services are set up to support comorbid, what they see as kind of mental health difficulties, so associated anxiety or depression or, you know, kind of trauma PTSD type support, but it can be harder for those who are functioning fairly well by NHS standards to get that support. Like, actually, if you're doing well, even if you're distressed, I think sometimes it's harder to get that support. And that's sometimes where the charities are really good for being able to provide support when it isn't available on the NHS. But again, just thinking about trauma, very few of the charities offer specific trauma therapy and so if there are trauma symptoms, whilst it's great to have that supportive space to be listened to and to kind of think about your loss, those things aren't going to process the trauma and reduce the symptoms. So I think it can be really helpful, as you said, to think about when do you get that more, you say professional support, but when do
[00:50:24] Dr Kara Davey: you get
[00:50:24] Speaker 3: the more specialist support and yeah, and what is the right specialist support. And sometimes, you know, within my practice, because there's quite a few psychologists who work within it, sometimes the request we get is, can I just book one or two sessions just to say, is it trauma or isn't it? Like, sometimes people are just, you know, just want to answer that question of when is that specialist support helpful. And I think, again, that might be looking at the question of whether there's trauma there. But the other thing is just generally, like, I think of the resources we have to cope with difficult life events. Like, think of it a bit like a seesaw. Like, in life, you've probably developed a certain number of resources to kind of cope with life. Now suddenly, if you experience the loss of a baby, loss of a partner, like those things, like, the level of distress you experience becomes so high that it would make sense that you need some help to build some more support, you know, some more resources to even it out. So even if it's not specific trauma therapy that you're looking for, sometimes people will say you know, sometimes people beat themselves up. I'm not coping well enough or, you know, there's something wrong with me because I can't manage this. And it's like, well, actually, you've experienced so much. Doesn't it make sense that you might need extra support or extra resources right now to try and work out how to manage those really difficult moments or, you know, when the distress is high, like managing increased anxiety or, you know, kind of what are the tools? Might never have needed to learn those before now.
[00:51:51] Dr Kara Davey: Absolutely. And it's so important what you just said about building that awareness of how how things have been and acknowledging that, you know, it's been a really difficult time. And anyone going through this would have experienced significant difficulties. And and it's not to say that there's anything wrong with it, but sometimes we just need a bit of an understanding or kind of someone kind of thinking more holistically about where we are. And as you said, you know, counseling can be very helpful, but but it doesn't always kind of go specifically into this kind of traumatic elements that we're able to shift, and and we might not be aware of that. I mean, it's it's just not something that you can possibly know yourself. It's not kind of an this level of, I think, kind of nuances and complexities is is very difficult to get right, and which is why I think speaking about these these issues is so important. And, Kara, as you said about your website and the resources and people who that work in your team, including yourself, but also all the practitioners who are working, who who are specialists in that area. They can be incredibly helpful in just changing the trajectory of life after loss. And and, yeah, I think my kind of surprise with how difficult things are for many people, especially when you I'm part of many social groups on Facebook for young widows and people who have experienced or struggling with multiple losses. And I'm always really surprised how little people know about the elements of trauma and how many of them experience trauma. And it's heartbreaking that we can't obviously reach everyone, but speaking about this and sharing that knowledge, it is so invaluable. And so we will share some of those resources you've developed, links in show notes to those, and and, obviously, your website when people can find out a bit more about the elements of trauma. You also run groups, don't you, for people who've experienced a loss of baby or pregnancy loss. Is that right? Can you say a bit more about that?
[00:54:11] Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. So I run kind of monthly, baby loss support groups. So they did used to be open to anyone. They are more focused now towards people who've experienced a loss in the second and third trimester, and that's not invalidating any earlier loss at all. And, you know, talking about trauma, early kind of first trimester losses can be equally as traumatic. The feedback from attendees was that the losses were quite different. And for some people, it was kind of causing more anxiety having that kind of mixture in the same groups. So they're more at kind of second and third trimester losses. Those looking for first trimester losses, I'd recommend the miscarriage association support groups. Uh-huh. And then I also run after that group. There's a separate group for people who are trying again to get pregnant after loss and the kind of anxiety or kind of complex emotion that might come up. Again, that idea that sometimes people think you're kind of moving on or how people might feel or, you know, any of those kind of complex emotions. It's just a space to be around other people who Mhmm. Kind of understand that. So, yeah, they do run monthly. And, again, all of the things I've mentioned today, just there's one link that that's got a list of each of them. So you can just go to all of them or the website there. So, yeah, please do feel free if you're, you know, sadly, if you're in the situation where you have lost and that would be helpful. Please do come along to groups.
[00:55:34] Dr Kara Davey: Yeah. That's that's so important that there are places where people can go and access those forms of support, and it's so wonderful that you're offering these meetings, these groups for people and just allowing them to connect with other people who've experienced this, but also sharing that understanding and shifting things in people's perception of your loss and life after loss. And it's been so wonderful to have you on a podcast, Kara, just listening to your reflections and that depth of knowledge that you have of, you know, really kind of empathically reaching that kind of very rural spot. So it's been really good to to talk to you and just to kind of get that kind of perspective of those multiple losses, secondary losses. It's been really, really good to have you. So thank you.
[00:56:28] Speaker 3: Thank you so much. Yeah. It's been lovely to speak with you too, and I really appreciate the invite on. I know it's a a topic that's difficult, know, kind of to talk about or, you know, for people to, yeah, to generally hear a perspective on. So, yeah, it's an honor to be able to discuss that with you. Thank you.
[00:56:43] Dr Kara Davey: And we'll put all the links and your social media handles in the show notes, so anyone's interested in finding a bit more about your work and all the resources. It's all in the show notes. Thank you for today.
[00:56:58] Dr Monika Wieliczko: Thank you for joining us. I hope you found it useful. Connect with me on Facebook and Instagram under guide to afterlife for more grief tips and resources. Visit guide to afterlife.com to send me your questions and to take part in the grief MOT, your free first aid program for grief. See you next Tuesday for yet another stimulating conversation.
